This is my template for my 2019 racing setup, relying on using Hybrid Floss (5" front, 6" rear) frames on 6S-Ready setups. The Formula:
The frame is a hybrid (5" front, 6" rear) Floss - in either Floss 2.1 or Floss3.0 configuration.
Serge now offers this setup out of the box for Floss 3.0 kits, but I cobbled this together on my own since I planned on using the Brain3D and PHX-3D Nylon Canopies with these builds.
The concept is that with reverse prop direction, this setup allows for the maximum amount of undisturbed air to reach the rear props, which in tight negative angle of attack maneuvers (like split-S, corkscrew, and hairpins) minimizes the need to react to propwash caused by rear propellers being in dirty air.
I happened into testing out this setup when I broke an arm at a race and only had a 6" boomerang to throw on the back. After one heat on that setup, that's been my go-to frame layout since September of '18. If this setup is good enough for Evan Turner to dominate at MGP Nationals, it's more than adequate for me. Curiously, this comes in at the same weight (within 2g depending on motors) as Evan's, and these motors are range between around 1750-1900KV, making this a really close clone - which I didn't realize until two weeks after I took my first pair of 2019 race season builds out for a maiden the week of MultiGP Nationals.
I'm still partial to running DAL T5046C props for racing, although these feel absolutely amazing on Gemfan 5149's and Gemfan 5146.6 props. I happen to have quite a few sets of the MCK props in pink, so I primarily fly those on the pink SunnySky Edge Racing 1800KV motors, while the XILO 2250KV motors tend to run the 5149-3 props on 4S and 5S, but I'll move to lower pitch HQ 5.1x3.6x3 props on 6S. Race days, I still find myself leaning on the V2 Cyclones when it counts.
For aesthetics, I've been really enjoying the PyroRace LEDs on the bottom, with a 5V LED backlighting the canopy. The overall simplicity afforded by running racewire setups is great, and the backlit nylon canopies look great at an overall minimal weight penalty. The real advantage to me is the antenna mounting becomes very simple and durable, otherwise it's a ~20g weight penalty overall.
The pictures here don't do it justice for how good these look with any of those propellers in any kind of lighting - or how striking the LED setup is in low light conditions.
The flight control stack is the PyroF4/Furling with the PyroF4 V2.1 Pit PinI/O switch to turn off video. Paired with a Unify HV Pro, and Foxeer Lollipop, that's a pretty impressive do-all setup. I've also gotten tired with cobbling together odd RC Receiver setups, so this has the R-XSR also VHB taped to the back side of the PyroF4 board.
For capacitors, I've added either the big honking 35V 1000uF capacitor on there, or a pair of 470uF caps, so this is pretty solid all around.
I probably need to make the leap to CRSF before I collect too many more FrSky receivers, but even my setups running FlySky X6B's are competitively fast.
I have poor luck with VTX setups - the Unify HV Pro Race is what I've tried to settle on, but I've killed a few of those, and I've just started running Eachine VTX03's with a pit switch on 5V and had honestly excellent luck (power-on interference isn't the best, but the integral pit switch prevents the biggest problem with those $8 transmitters, and that's heat soak while disarmed).
My preferred software setup is Betaflight 4.0 - primarily because I've found that the D-Min capability on D-Term allows me to achieve great propwash performance while maintaining cool motors and better efficiency, particularly when running 6S on higher KV setups (2000KV, 2150KV, 2250KV, 5S on 2500KV). Beyond that, the only other changes worth discussing are rates (for me fairly low RC rates with roughly stock super rates resulting in ~500°/s Roll/Pitch and ~275°/s Yaw, a filters which really matter the most. I still run fairly minimal changes from default on filters - drop the Gyro LPF 2, bump the gyro LPF1 up to 150Hz, and allow the D-Term filter to drop down to 125Hz. While the net gain in phase latency is pretty minimal, this setup with D-Min values around 12-16, I've been able to finish heats on delaminated arms and annihilated props.
One key for me is managing throttle through limiting maximum throttle - even when running 4S on 2000KV motors, I limit throttle to 95% input. I still see 100% motor commands in blackbox recordings, so the added resolution is always a good thing, and at peak throttle the FC can only use the PID sum that allows stable flight that is capped by the one motor at 100% throttle, so adding resolution on the stick is great. On the more aggressive 6S setups, I will limit motor outputs or RC throttle stick outputs down into the 65-75% range depending on props.
I have nine builds following this template now, each with some minor variation of motors. As far as impressions on each:
On a budget I recommmend the EMAX Eco 2207 1900KV ($12), or my personal preference, SunnySky Edge Racing 2207's if you can find them <$15/motor ($13.49),
If you're after performance which exceeds my piloting skills, I feel that it's worth the extra scratch to run R6 or F60 motors.
Batteries don't have to break the bank either, when you find a good sale on CNHL, Turnigy Graphene, Pyrodrone, Pulse, Tattu, or GNB packs you'll be in great shape. For 4S, the venerable CNHL 1300mAh 100C packs are impossible to beat for the price, although the 1500mAh Ministars are impressive. 5S 1300mAh-1800mAh anything works great, and on 6S the whole range of 1000-1500mAh work great.
I've found that there are two setups for racing quads I really prefer - either very lightweight nimble setups which rely on low AUW for handling performance, or these more powerful setups that take advantage of tall stators and big batteries for power and stability.
For going really light weight, those setups actually perform best with 4S 1000mAh-1300mAh batteries anyway (<400g AUW builds on 2205 ~2600KV motors with light props), going to 6S only feels great if running >150second races. Dry weight on those quads in the 205-225g range is generally best to maintain durability and flight time, though up to 245g still works quite well.
For me personally on most tracks, the optimum setup of choice is these bigger beasts running 6S packs, which brings the dry weight of ~315g up around 500-525g depending on batteries. With the props/motors I prefer, there isn't a drastic performance difference between the lightest 6S 1000mAh packs or the heavier 1300mAh packs I own, and helpfully the performance isn't differentiated that much by battery quality either - just about any decent 6S pack will perform super-well, so just get the cheapest good batteries you can (usually on-sale CNHL packs)
The flexibility afforded by building that way allows for 4S/5S/6S performance, 5"/5.1"/5.2"/5.5"/6" props, and lets you standardize to one quad setup that offers for cruising, long range, efficiency, or outright speed.
If you can standardize all the parts to this setup, you'll find yourself money ahead, and can justify running higher quality parts because you need fewer spares.
How do you like the Floss 3 frame vs floss 2.1?
To be honest, in the air I can't tell a difference. Weight is almost identical, and they can even share canopies (bit of a length difference, but forcing that fit isn't too bad with nylon or TPU canopies).
The single arm replacement is nice on paper, but the really bad crashes take out the Aluminum plate sometimes. I'd say the 3.0 is probably the better frame and more future-proof option. I personally like the 2.1's because there is a kevlar 5" option, and because I like the pink/purple theme, but practically I'd recommend the 3.0 (or Neutron-R if you want dedicated 20x20) because that's the more practical setup - just build it with blue loctite and torque everything down.,
When you're starting off racing, the number one attribute is how well it survives minor crashes - you'll have a lot of them. I think a light Floss3.0 is one of the best things out there for handling that, so you're in good shape.
Practice changing channels on your quads and goggles, and make sure you pay attention to the pilot's line briefing, and you'll have tons of fun with it - just spend as much time in the air as you can, and work on getting lines rather than going fast.
Thanks so much for the motor breakdown! I hope you have a great season racing :)
how are the flight times with the eco motors? been eyeing them as they seem to draw less amps
Crashed the poop out of these yesterday - the bearings went from smooth new to a bit audibly crunchy, but still spin OK. Something to the tune of 15 crashes, a few hard before I broke a connector on the FC and had to stop flying that quad, so they get my thumb of approval. I'd run those or the SunnySky 2207's, just depending if you want light weight or maximum thrust (although those EdgeRacing aren't on sale anymore)
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How in the world do you have cool motors? Mine come down smoking hot, I think I might have overpropped. 2205 1800kv on 6s with 5047 dalprop cyclones. Any ideas? I'm running Betaflight 4.0.4, with low d values and d_min
I'd first try and make sure everything is mechanically solid - bolts and loctite type stuff, and make sure the stack has give but can't resonate. I've had all of those options, which will result in hot motors regardless of props.
Those aren't particularly aggressive props, so that doesn't sound like the issue. 1800KV doesn't sound problematic either, especially since 2205's aren't going to ask for as much current (i.e. less power use so less heat).
Are you getting any jello or sounds that would be close to mid-throttle oscillations? Those will make motors run hot.
What are you D-Term Dynamic Lowpass filters set like? On a lot of setups running that dLPF towards the low end (115Hz maybe) on BiQuad, and keeping a fixed LPF at 250Hz on PT1 can really knock down the PID Sum noise driven through the D term without adding lots of phase latency (still get good D term assistance in propwash). Stock feels a touch high on those for me, lowering that LPF seems to knock out a lot of that 180-225Hz junk where some frames just resonate.
I'd also look at ESC Settings - if you can dial back the rampup/startup power, run demag compensation, and add timing and that also helps with motor temps as well as smoothness.
Loctite isn't a bad idea. THese screws tend to shake slightly loose. I might have cranked the stack down too tight, I'll check that also. My tune is a bit off, I was getting a ton of propwash and raised the P quite a bit yesterday, so I have to get that figured out. I'm not sure about the filters, I'll check those out.
I just can't get them to cool down. Here's a couple pictures of my settings.
The D Term filters are off - I'd allow the dynamic (top) down to 100Hz, keep it Biquad. I'd take that bottom fixed LPF and move it back up to 250Hz, PT1 works for it.
On the gyro dynamic, keep that under 300Hz. On a 3" quad you'll see noise peaks up around 375Hz, but it's a lowpass, it's just latching onto noise and not helping anymore above that.
I'd still try and make sure there isn't anything mechanical off. You can also use the motors tab and spin up motors to make sure none are way off balance.
Thanks for the info. I think this is what you were trying to say . . . I'm new to filtering so I'm not sure though.
Some of those are way low - if you try filtering 50Hz noise out, you're filtering out propwash information, which ultimately isn't what we're after.
Gyro Lowpass Dynamic 1 is fine - but the LPF2 should probably be off, or at 250Hz.
D-Term Dynamic Lowpass should run from a min of 100Hz up to 250Hz at the top. You're double-filtering the D term at higher frequencies, but that phase latency is fine because we don't actually care about that information
Flies great now, motors are hot but not too hot. Thanks!!
That's still a somewhat aggressive tune , but I'm really glad to hear it's working for you now!
What could I soften up with it now?
Without losing performance, you can move the DTerm Lowpass 2 up to 250Hz, and lower the Gyro Dynamic Lowpass range from 125Hz Min up to 225Hz Max. TPA Breakpoint can be lower (1480 is as low as I'll go), and the D_Min values can come down into the mid teens (I tend to run 14, 16 on roll/pitch respectively). Can also enable iTermRelax, at least on Roll/Pitch, which helps with some of those I-term overshoots.
Beyond that, you can start giving back performance for motor temps - lower P/D (keep the same ratio), or move the lowpass filters even lower, but I'd try all of the above first and see if that gets you there.